[00:00:00] Liz Wiseman: Welcome to

[00:00:08] Christy Tonge: Leaders Get Real, inspirational interviews with today's authentic leaders. I'm your host, Christy Tong, bringing you insightful interviews with bestselling authors and with leaders who are purposeful, passionate, and authentic. Gain compelling insights as they share the challenges and rewards of leading with authenticity and impact.

Liz Wiseman is the New York Times bestselling author of Multipliers, how the best leaders make everyone smarter. Liz has been listed on the thinkers 50 ranking and named one of the top 10 leadership thinkers in the world. She writes for Harvard Business Review and Fortune. Liz is a former vice president at Oracle, where she worked for 17 years.

She's now the CEO of the Wiseman group with recent clients, including Facebook, Apple, Disney, Nike, Tesla, and Twitter. In this conversation, we talk about her book multipliers. Liz has rock solid research and compelling insights. She's the real deal. Authentic, smart. Funny and ultra practical. You're in for a treat.

Liz, I am so energized about having our conversation today. Welcome to Leaders Get Real.

[00:01:30] Liz Wiseman: Oh, well, Christy, I'm glad to be on your podcast.

[00:01:33] Christy Tonge: Yeah, I have been looking forward to this interview because I love your book, Multipliers. And when I give book recommendations to the executives I coach, Multipliers is definitely one of the books that I recommend the most often.

And I have found your book so provocative. It just has a different stretch than most other leadership books.

[00:01:56] Liz Wiseman: That's funny. You say that, that provocative. Cause when, um, my first, I finished the book and we are gathering up some endorsements, I remember one of them came back saying it's a subversive book.

And I wasn't sure if I should be worried about that or flattered because I do think it is a very different look at.

[00:02:17] Christy Tonge: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I tell people it's an advanced maneuver. I mean, you know, I've read a lot of leadership books that people like coach have often been there, done that. And this just, I think provides, um, more of a growing edge, um, and challenges people in a different way.

So let's talk about it, uh, share with us what's the premise of the book.

[00:02:41] Liz Wiseman: Well, the premise of the book is about intelligence and how leaders use intelligence and really how the intelligence of a leader can affect the intelligence of their team. And you might think that really smart people, um, when they're put into leadership roles end up, you know, building really smart team that maybe that their intelligence is.

Is infectious, but what we find is that there are a number of really smart people who end up dumbing down their teams that they may be smart, but people around them don't get to be smart or don't need to be smart, that the team becomes really reliant on the intelligence or the genius of the leaders.

And I. I came to call these leaders diminishers because they have this diminishing effect on the intelligence and capability of, of people around them. And, and I contrast that with, uh, a very different kind of leader that I have come to call multipliers who use their own intelligence in a way. That provokes intelligence and ideas and know how and capability in people around them that they're not playing Solely the role of genius.

They're they're also playing the role of genius maker

[00:04:04] Christy Tonge: Yeah. I love that phrase. Yes. I've heard, um, in some of your speaking engagements where you say, do you want to be a genius? And it's like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. That sounds good.

[00:04:15] Liz Wiseman: Yeah.

[00:04:19] Christy Tonge: And then you ask, or do you want to be a genius maker? And that's a powerful question really at the heart of your book.

[00:04:27] Liz Wiseman: And I think it's a fundamental question that leaders Should be asking themselves, which is which role do you tend to play? And it's also a question we can ask ourselves on a daily basis or on an hour by hour basis. You know, you come out of a meeting and you might ask yourself. What role did I play there?

Was I the genius trying to have all the answers telling people what to do, or was I playing a multiplier role? Was I the genius maker in that meeting? Mm. You know, I, I really do think that at the top of the intelligence hierarchy is, is not the genius, but truly the one who brings out genius in others because it's.

It's a more scalable way of leading. Yeah.

[00:05:10] Christy Tonge: And I'm a highlighter when I read books, I know audio books are, you know, the latest, but I still love my paper version and highlighting it. And one of the things I highlighted. Is when you talked about what you get when you're a multiplier and you know, you get more intelligent action, more adept problem solving and more concentrated effort.

How powerful is that? I mean, talk about competitive advantage.

[00:05:42] Liz Wiseman: Did I write that? I think you did. Does it sound good that I'm like, wow, that sounds good. And you know, I wrote the first edition of the books eight years ago. So. Some of those sentences, um, like old friends that I get reacquainted with, but you really do.

And, and this is the premise, you know, and the point of the book is that it's not just a moral imperative, like, Oh gee, you should be the kind of leader that brings out the best in others because that's what good guys do. It really, the argument extends beyond that. It's. It's that leaders who play the multiplier role using their own intelligence to provoke ideas and intelligence and others, they get more from people, you know, better ideas.

As it said, a concentrated effort. And what we found is that these diminishing leaders get less than half of people's available intelligence. You know, and, and, and it, of course, it's built on this, this, um, observation I had for it came from my time as a corporate, um, leader myself was that there really is a lot more intelligence available to us.

Then then we're using like there's more intelligence available to a typical department manager than that department manager is seeing and using that there's There's latent or hidden intelligence all around us. And these multiplier leaders get twice the levels of intellect and know how from their people than these diminishers do.

Mm hmm.

[00:07:21] Christy Tonge: Yeah. And, uh, you know, you just mentioned your industry experience, which you were at Oracle for how many

[00:07:28] Liz Wiseman: years? I was there for 17 years, um, which probably, you know, there's, there's probably a multiplier factor on that too, that 17 years at Oracle, so I'm kind of like a car with low years, high miles.

We saw myself because I, you know, I joined Oracle and this, This, you know, accelerated rapid growth phase Yes. In the company. And they were just exploding as a company. I get thrown into management at 24 years old, like a child, like literally I felt like a child. Mm-Hmm. who just got put into like a, an adult job.

And, um, so yeah, there's, there's a lot of miles Yes. On me as I tried to, um, help grow that company. Yes.

[00:08:11] Christy Tonge: And to be an executive. At the company that's so demanding and rigorous from, uh, the culture that I know there, uh, certainly you've gained a lot of thick skin and a lot of insights about leading, being there.

And, uh, what I love about your book is that it's grounded in such solid research. So tell us about your research underneath the multipliers.

[00:08:38] Liz Wiseman: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm glad that that research comes through. I think it's my post oracle, um, the, the book in some ways was my post oracle therapy trying to understand, you know, why is it that some leaders seem to amplify intelligence while others drain it.

But I came out of a data company and so it never occurred to me that you would write a book without doing a lot of thorough research. So we did look and we studied, um, And kind of at the core of the research was, was looking at people's experience with different leaders and assessing through their own, you know, perceptions, how much of their know how and capability these leaders got, and then also assessing these leaders on a variety of different scales.

And you know, we found that they get. Twice the levels of intellect. Um, well, there's, you know, um, over 40 percent better at getting world class results. So they tend to, you know, have a stronger execution and delivery orientation. You know, bottom line is we looked at a number of different measures that show that least leaders simply get more from people.

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But sometimes it involves getting a little bit less from yourself. Hmm. Same ones. But I, you know, I, well I, this is, it's kind of simple math. Um, you know, if I try to be 10 percent more productive myself, I, and if I'm successful, I get 10 percent more productivity. But if I manage a team of 10 and I lead in a way that the people on my team get 10 percent more productive and I don't get an, you know, uh, an ounce, a percentage more productive, you know, like this is very basic math that to me is really compelling.

Um, in fact, One time when I was at Oracle, I was a new manager and you know, I probably grew up with a little bit of an overdeveloped work ethic. I think honestly, Christy, it comes from having been fired from my first job as a teenager because I had a little bit of a lackadaisical attitude about my job working in this t shirt store in a mall in San Jose.

But yeah, I think. It caused me to develop this overdeveloped sense of work ethic of really working hard and, and really making sure I made a full contribution. And my boss, you know, I'm a brand new manager. I think I'm probably 25 years old at the time. He stops by my office and he said, just out of nowhere, he said, you know, Liz, as far as I'm concerned, you can read novels all day long, as long as your team is.

Is productive. And I could see that there was like a teaching message in this, but I was so twisted up about the read novels all day long. I'm like, well, first of all, I don't read a lot of novels. I'm kind of a nonfiction sort of gal myself. And, but I was just baffled by this. I'm like, what is he saying?

Does he want me to sit here and put my feet up? Because like it violated my, my work ethic. And it took me probably, At least several hours, if not several days or weeks to really process what he was saying to me, which is you and your personal productivity aren't what matter here. You're now leading a team.

And essentially what he was, he was sensitizing to me was this multiplier effect, which is, you know, and so instead of focusing on how many things on my to do list, I got crossed off. I started to focus on how do I move work to other people and And keep it there. How do I ensure that other people can be smart and competent and capable?

But sometimes it means turning down our own volume a little bit or not necessarily holding back, you know, because you mentioned, you mentioned the word edge, Christy, that, you know, there's a certain edge here. And part of it is these leaders have a hard. And it's not that they dial themselves down to zero and they're these kind of empty headed facilitative leaders that, you know, don't bring their own ideas or their own sort of game to it.

It's they play big, but they play in a way that invites other people to be big. And in some ways they temper their own strengths to make room for other people's strengths to come into view and to get into the game.

[00:13:15] Christy Tonge: Uh, you described that so well. I mean, it just brings up for me the, the hard part of this.

I mean, the people I'm coaching to make that transition and you know, these are folks who's like. I'm really competent, you know, I really like, I've always been promoted and I've always been, you know, I'm proud of

[00:13:37] Liz Wiseman: the fact that I can get stuff

[00:13:38] Christy Tonge: done and I'm really good at it and I can make things happen.

And then surely

[00:13:45] Liz Wiseman: my team wants all of this. Like they want me and all of my capability, but it comes at a price, doesn't it? When leaders are just constantly big. And brilliant.

[00:14:00] Christy Tonge: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so well described,

[00:14:03] Liz Wiseman: you know, one of my favorite, um, stories about this was, um, you know, magic Johnson's early experience as an athlete.

And, you know, a lot of people know him as a great athlete. Um, I, You know, I think of him as just an amazing leader. He's an amazing business leader. He's leading the, the Lakers now as the president of basketball operations. And he, he shares this experience he had at a very young man. So, you know, this is Magic Johnson, of course, who wasn't born Magic Johnson.

He was Irvin Johnson Jr. And, you know, for, for those listening who maybe aren't basketball fans, we're talking about basketball and. And he's growing up this, you know, kid in Michigan, he's a high school player, and he has this experience that really shapes the way that he plays. It shapes the way that he leads for the rest of his life.

And his band, he's a total phenom. Absolutely. Um, and, and his coach said to him, Irvin, every time you get the ball, I want you to, you might think he would say pass, but his coach actually said to him, Irvin, every time you get the ball, I want you to take the shot. So he did. And you know, he scored a lot of points and they won.

A lot of games. In fact, they won, they won every game. They were undefeated. And of course the coach loves it because they're this, you know, he's this coachable kid. He's doing exactly what the coach is asking of him. And the other players actually love it because, you know, what young high school kid doesn't want to be on an undefeated team.

Yeah, so it's like glory days every game and, uh, but then, uh, you know, so win after win after win. They come to one game and they win, of course, and young Irvin, uh, as the game finished, they finished their celebrating and the players are now leaving the high school gymnasium with their parents. They're headed out to the parking lot and he sees the faces of the parents.

Who of course came to see their kid play, and what did they get to see? You know, they get to see sort of a one man show, and I think it was that disappointment on the faces of the parents that, that caused him to, to make a commitment to himself that he would use his God given talent to help everyone on the team be a better player.

And he reoriented himself in some ways. He had become. From a, a, a basketball, um, and a physicality and a talent perspective, he'd become an accidental diminisher to his team simply by just being big and using all of his capability. And it's not like, and the reason why I love this example is he didn't then.

Decide he was going to be like most inspirational, you know, cheer the team for the sidelines, go into coaching, whatever he played huge, but he played in a way that invited everyone else to play at their very best. And it was actually this orientation that gave him this nickname of, of magic. It was a Michigan sports writer who.

Who said he just raises the level of play of every team he ever plays on. And I think this is what it's like to be a multiplier or a genius maker as we called it before is, you know, it's asking yourself, what effect do you have on people? Do people hold back around you? Do they defer to you? Do they just pass to you and you take all the shots or do you raise the level of play for everyone on your team?

Even the ones that maybe, Don't seem like the smartest person in the world, but can they get smarter and more capable? With the right kind of leadership. Mm hmm.

[00:17:58] Christy Tonge: Yeah. And you, you just used this phrase accidental diminisher and that's one of my favorite things about your book. And you know when I talk about these concepts with folks it's easy when they hear the terms to go, Oh, I know some diminishers.

And they think about those, you know, those jerks, right. Shut people down and, you know, railroad ride over people and they're, um, and they're assholes, so to speak.

[00:18:27] Liz Wiseman: But we all know them. Yes. Yes. They tend to dominate the headlines, but that's not where the real story of leadership.

[00:18:35] Christy Tonge: Yeah. Yeah. But the accidental diminishers, I think that's just brilliant to put our finger on that the way you have is we're doing it and we don't even know it and we're doing some good things, you know, in our concept of leading and wanting to model by our example or some things like that.

But tell us a little bit more about this whole idea of accidental diminisher, you know, maybe an example in a, in a business context where a leader with really good intentions. in the way he or she was leading was unknowingly doing diminisher behaviors.

[00:19:11] Liz Wiseman: Yeah. Well, it was the big surprise of the research.

You know, it, I wasn't that surprised to find out. That the multipliers and diminishers did very different things and, and, you know, in the, and in the book, you know, I, I outlined the five fundamental differences between these kinds of leaders, but, and I wasn't really surprised to find that these multipliers got more from other people to X.

I was, I was surprised by the, um, the extreme difference between these two leaders. But I was very surprised and I continue to be surprised that most of the diminishing that's happening in our companies, in our nonprofits, in our schools. And I would, I would toss in there in our families and our social groups is most of it's coming from the accidental diminisher that has.

Really good intentions and is often following a popular management practice, but yet they're having a diminishing impact and You know, it's funny you mentioned like there was a lot of rigorous research that went into really Understanding this multiplier effect and the difference between these leaders but once I realized that so much of the diminishing was accidental and I I tried to identify the ways that this happened and, you know, it took me about an hour to do this.

And, and I'll tell you, Christy, part of what I did is I just looked in the mirror, you know, and, and I scan back, I looked in the mirror, like, what do I do that I think is extremely helpful or positive or motivating that actually tends to shut people down now that I really understand what causes people to shut down.

And, and I scanned and thought about the people who I've worked with over the years and the good things they do that seem like they're on track, but they actually suppress capability. Um, you, you asked for an example. Maybe I'll give you my favorite examples there because they're just, I, I am my own favorite accidental diminisher because.

You know, I can see my good intentions. And of course we've probably all heard some variety of this saying that we tend to judge people by their actions, but we judge ourselves by our good intentions. And so I'll share a few of the ways that, um, This happens for me. Um, I'm an idea guy and I love ideas. I love innovation.

I love creative environments. And so, you know, I often would come into a meeting and say, well, what about this? And have you thought about this? And have you tried that? And I think I'm just, you know, getting the party started. I'm sparking creativity. But you know, what happens Around the idea guy. Like what do you do when someone's constantly spouting ideas?

[00:22:11] Christy Tonge: Oh gosh, you just Yeah, you just, you've nailed me.

[00:22:18] Liz Wiseman: You might not even see the amplifications. So people like you and me who are just like, you know, full of ideas, either we lead people on sort of a rabbit chase, like, Oh, hey, how about this? How about that? And people end up chasing ideas, making, um, you know, a millimeter of progress in a million different directions.

And you know, when, when you do that day after day, you start. to get apathetic. And you start to tell yourself, you know, I don't need to come up with any idea. Like I don't need to really pursue any of these ideas because they don't go anywhere.

[00:22:54] Christy Tonge: Or it's like, well, Liz has got plenty of ideas or Chris, you know, like, Oh, well, Christy seemed to have a lot of

[00:23:00] Liz Wiseman: ideas, right?

Yeah. She's a fountain of ideas. And so if I need to do some thinking, I just going to go down to her office because that like that goes off every hour. I'll just get them there. You know, there was, um, It reminds me of, uh, a tech leader, you know, you and I are both here in Silicon Valley and, you know, um, uh, a CEO, a founder CEO of a very, um, prominent tech company.

And You know his CCTO, he told me one of the jobs he had a CTO is, is having to go through the organization and say, kind of ignore the boss. You know, because he was constantly the CEO, the founder would constantly come in, Hey, we should do this, we should try this. These features that features, and it was extraordinarily disruptive to the organization.

So he had to go and do kind of run interference on that. And he learned to ask his CEO, do you actually want us. To build that feature into the product. Do you want us to actually start developing that product or are we just kind of Talking creatively here and, um, you know, that's an example of how, of how a leader who thinks he or she is sparking innovation actually is creating a lot of disruption around them and causing other people to get, you know, we tend to get a little idea lazy around people who are really idea rich.

[00:24:28] Christy Tonge: Yeah. Yeah. That, um, that's such a great example of how it happens all the time. And I know in reading your book, when I say it's provocative, it definitely opened my eyes to so many ways with good intentions that I'm getting in the way and I'm being an accidental diminisher. Oh yeah.

[00:24:47] Liz Wiseman: We might be, maybe you're, um, a rescuer.

You know, you, you don't like to see people fail or struggle. And so you help maybe too early or too often, um, or maybe, um, You respond so quickly that other people end up, um, deferring or, you know, actually the, the number one way we see people accidentally diminish. So we've been doing this quiz. Are you an accidental diminisher?

And you can find it on the book's website, but it's a three minute quiz. We've gathered 30, 000 data points from this. And I'll tell you the number one way that people tend to accidentally diminish is by being a pace setter. Um, by, by leading by example, um, you know, thinking, okay, I'll set the pace for customer service or I'll set the pace for innovation or cost control or revenue growth, whatever seems to be the value or the what's on the agenda for the company.

And when the leader sets the pace, it's very easy for them to get out ahead of their team. Mm hmm. And, you know, if you've ever tried to drive in a caravan with somebody who's a slow driver, you know this, that the more you speed up saying like, come on, go faster. This is me. This is me driving with my mom.

I'm always like, mom, come on. You can go faster. Like the conditions allow for you to actually drive faster than 55. So I'm speeding up as a way to signal to her, come on, let's go, let's go. And what does she do? She slows down. And I'm like, mom, why did you slow down? She goes, I was trying to tell you, I couldn't keep up with you.

And, and it, it actually happens a lot. At work, you know, when the leader gets out ahead of the team, people often don't speed to catch up. They end up falling back and, and when we lead by setting the pace for our team, we're more likely to create spectators than followers. People are kind of watching us do our thing like, Ooh, look there, there Liz goes.

You know, doing her thing, like, let me know, Liz, if you need help next time you lap me. You know, like, and, and people, you know, I think it's one of the things I've learned is that particularly around the accidental diminisher, your team. Yeah.

[00:27:24] Christy Tonge: And that is so counterintuitive.

[00:27:30] Liz Wiseman: You've

[00:27:30] Christy Tonge: been listening to part one of my interview with Liz Wiseman, author of Multipliers. There was way too much good stuff in our interview to cut it down, so there'll be a part two to look forward to. In the meantime, you can take the quiz show She mentioned to see if you're an accidental diminisher to find info about the quiz and other resources for becoming a multiplier.

Go now to leaders, get real. com and click my podcast tab. Thanks for tuning in today. Please spread the word by sharing this interview with colleagues and to get an alert for part two of my chat with Liz and other upcoming interviews, subscribe at iTunes leaders, get real. com. Or your favorite podcast app.

And until next time, go forth and get real.

[00:00:00] Christy Tonge: Welcome to Leaders Get Real, inspirational interviews with today's authentic leaders. I'm your host, Christy Tonge, bringing you insightful interviews with bestselling authors and with leaders who are purposeful, passionate, and authentic. Gain compelling insights as they share the challenges. And rewards of leading with authenticity and impact.

Liz Wiseman is the New York times bestselling author of multipliers, how the best leaders make everyone smarter. Liz has been listed on the thinkers 50 ranking and named one of the top 10 leadership thinkers in the world. She writes for Harvard business review and fortune. In this episode, we dive back in for part two of our conversation.

So far, she's talked about her groundbreaking research, which shows how great leaders or multipliers bring out the genius in others and get more than twice the results. And she asked some challenging questions like whether we could be an accidental diminisher with others. And not even know it. Ouch. It's opened my eyes.

Now we pick up and get to hear more stories and insights, and by the end of our chat, Liz gives three practical challenges that we can walk out with and try immediately. And if you try one, you can end up with a signed copy of Liz's book. So let's jump back in. What I appreciate about your book is that you are just so practical.

In laying out the five disciplines of a multiplier. And so I just want to touch on a few of them because I think getting a feel of what it looks like to do these things as a multiplier really helps.

And one of those things, uh, one of those disciplines is to be a liberator. The first practice of liberator is creating space for people.

And you talk about the need for us to quote, restrain ourself. And so I'd love to hear any thoughts on that.

[00:02:15] Liz Wiseman: Well, we've, we find that the diminisher, so this is really about work environment and the kind of environment or culture that you create around you. And the diminisher tends to be, um, more of a tyrant and, and they're not always yelling chair throwing kind of tyrants, but they create stress around them.

And we know what happens to our. Our cognitive abilities when we're experiencing anxiety and stress, you know, literally are all of our higher levels of thinking and those parts of our, our brain shut down. Whereas the multiplier, they, instead of creating stress around them, they create safety. And. They create safety for people to do their best thinking and their best work.

And part of that safety is, is space. So they create space for people.

Um, so some of it's time based space. They, they give people a chance to prep. Now, if you are someone who is good on your, And you can think in real time, this is a really hard one to do. I've learned to do this is like some of the simplest ways to give people time based space is to send an agenda out for the meeting in advance.

I, you know, sometimes I would be leading a meeting, I'd be disappointed that people weren't. richer ideas or more rigorous debate. Well, yeah, because you're, you're springing it on them. And so I learned, you know what, send out the agenda 24 hours in advance. Or if there's a set of issues you want people to weigh in on, don't just give them a list of topics.

Give them a set of questions. Hey, here's how I want to engage your brain because Particularly if someone is more introverted, um, or, or thoughtful, or, you know, you want more data. People need time to prep. So that was one of the ways you can give people space is give them time or maybe space to see it differently than you.

Um, one way to give people space around you is to, to think differently is to label your own opinions. Like, okay, maybe that's a soft opinion. That's a hard opinion. A soft opinion is, you know what? It's just an idea. It's a thought I had. I'm sharing it with you for consideration. A hard opinion is, Oh, actually no.

This isn't an opinion. This is almost like a command. You know, I, I, like, I want you to do this and I want you to do it this way.

[00:04:37] Christy Tonge: Yeah. It's an expectation.

[00:04:39] Liz Wiseman: It's an expectation. Now, some people operate permanently in that space and need to offer a lot more soft opinions. But a lot of times we have a hard time ferreting out from our leaders, like, Does she really want me to do that or is that just fodder and, and, and so labeling your opinion soft and hard is helpful.

And of course, you know, reserve the hard opinions for the rarities when you really do say, no, no, no, this is kind of a command and control moment. I really need you to do it this way. This is what I expect. Um, or, you know, giving people space to make mistakes and, you know, uh, I don't know if Silicon Valley is to blame for this, Christy, but, um, we'll, we'll, we'll blame our Valley for this.

Yeah. You know, this, this mantra of, um, fail fast, fail forward, fail often, fail and recover, like all this kind of stuff is often managers will tell people, Hey, we want you to experiment. We want you to innovate, you know, feel free to make mistakes. Now, the problem with that is the newcomers, the rookies take that very literally and, and sometimes they make catastrophic mistakes.

Um, but a lot of times the more experienced and perhaps wise contributors say, you know, I don't actually believe you. I don't think you really mean that. One of the most liberating things a leader can do is to, um, to let people know, Hey, you know what? Here's where it's. It's okay to make mistakes, and here's where it's not okay.

These are the parts of the business, uh, where you can't really say, Oh, bummer dude, that didn't work out so well. Like, you know, back to my Oracle days, like, you know, you bring someone's production database down. Bummer dude is not an acceptable response versus, you know, Hey, we're, we're going to create, um, you know, a shadow install of the database.

And you know what? We're going to try some things there. Like that's a place where you can fail. So sometimes managers feel like they're under pressure to create these, uh, risk tolerant environments. I think the best thing you can do for your team is carve out the space. Here's where it's okay. Here's where it's not okay.

And be honest about where it's not okay, which is liberating for people to say, Oh, okay. There are some other places where we have, um, sandboxes and playgrounds. Where we can try stuff that might not work and, and live to tell. Mm hmm.

[00:07:00] Christy Tonge: Yeah. Uh, great description of that.

You also talk about the difference.

Some leaders create a tense environment and multipliers create an intense environment. What, um, what's the difference and, and what do you see when you see leaders doing one or the other? Yeah,

[00:07:22] Liz Wiseman: I think it, you know, we often think of an intense environment is like one where you can't make mistakes, but I think an intense environment is actually one where you feel in control.

Like we feel stress. When we're, we're, we're not in control, um, but what we find the best leaders do is they, they move control to other people. So you know, they put other people in charge, which is going to create intensity as opposed to tension. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:08:00] Christy Tonge: Yeah. Good stuff. And it's easy to be accidental about that as well as creating tension, making it tense rather than a positive kind of intense.

[00:08:11] Liz Wiseman: Yeah. And I would really encourage people to think about how they put other people in charge. And you know, one of the mistakes that we make, and I, you know, it's a trend we've seen over the last number of years is this trend toward collaboration. And it's really easy when you're in a collaborative environment or a matrixed organization to say, well, everyone's in charge.

Like we're all working together. You know, uh, I would equate that to at my house when everyone's in charge of feeding the cat. What happens? Nobody

[00:08:41] Christy Tonge: feeds the cat.

[00:08:42] Liz Wiseman: Nobody feeds the cat. Poor cat. No, like I, I think actually, you know, control, control gets a bad rap sort of being the boss and the charge sometimes gets a bad rep.

I think we have a deep need to know who's in charge. And one of the mistakes we make is we tell people they're in charge. But we don't tell ourselves that we're no longer in charge. And a lot of times we'll say, well, we're work, work on this together. Well, when a boss and a co one of their employees is working on something together, who do you really think the employee thinks is in charge?

The boss is in charge and we're like, no, no, you're really in charge. We're just collaborating. If you want someone to take charge, you essentially have to hand the pen over to them. Like you hand it to him, say you're in charge. And for, for them to really be in charge, you have to let go of the pen. Because a lot of times, you know, leaders are frustrated that people aren't stepping up and taking ownership and accountability.

Well, the reason they're not doing it. It's probably because you haven't relinquished or you haven't said, you know, when it comes to this project, this task, this decision, you get 51 percent of the vote. Yeah. Put other people in charge and you will get an intense environment. You maintain control and people around you will feel tense.

[00:10:02] Christy Tonge: Ah, that's such a great distinction. Yeah. Uh, the proverbial we, I find that there's been such, you know, there has been such emphasis on a collaborative environment. And so, you know, there is no I in team that leaders use that word we a lot. And then it's like, you know, we're going to do this and it's like, well.

Who's going to do this? You know, am I, you know, responsible, am I accountable or are you? And so those are some really good distinctions you've made. Another discipline is being a challenger versus the diminisher version of that is being a know it all. And I was coaching a CEO and I had her read your book while we worked together.

And she really took to heart this idea of being a multiplier. And when I asked her a month after she'd read the book and what was one of her biggest takeaways, it was from the challenger discipline, actually. And instead of trying to have the answers herself, which came really easy for her because she's really bright.

She began asking, quote, the big questions like you talk about in this discipline of her team members, and she said she'd already seen some tangible results. And so I'd love to hear your take, you know, an example of a leader that you've seen begin asking different questions and what's the difference in the results they get.

[00:11:28] Liz Wiseman: Maybe one of my favorite reframings came back when I had just finished the book and we gave a number of people, um, 30 day challenges. You know, what might you do for 30 days to be more of a multiplier? And, um, there was a woman who was leading someone on our team named low cash. And she said, okay, here's, here's my, here's my, um, you know, task as a leader is to, to find a way to use him better because I'm not sure that this guy is actually that smart.

And it, you know, and it was a brave observation to share, but I, I'm, I'm pretty sure we've all worked around someone that we've questioned, like, is this person actually really good at what they do? And are they, you know, are they even bright? Um, and she decided to ask a different question. And the question she asked was not is low cash smart?

In what way is he smart? And she said, I just kept asking myself this question for about two weeks. And at the end of the two weeks, I saw him so differently. And you know, if you have people on your team that you are struggling to lead or struggling even to like, to be honest, I would ask, I encourage you to ask this question in what way is this person smart?

And when you ask it with some sincerity, you will see that person's brilliance. And, um, It's a brilliance that they're going to want to share with you.

[00:13:00] Christy Tonge: Great example. Now, is it all or nothing? Are you either a multiplier or a diminisher? Are there examples of leaders who are a multiplier in some ways and not others or, or maybe in some contexts, but not others?

[00:13:17] Liz Wiseman: Well, I sure hope it's not all or nothing, just for my own salvation as a leader. And, you know, it really isn't. And even of the multipliers that I studied and those I wrote about, very few of them had all five of the multiplier disciplines going, like very few were firing on all five of those cylinders.

What I found is that those best leaders tended to have three or maybe four of those five. So it's not like you have to be. an amazing talent magnet, a liberator, a challenger, a debate maker, an investor, and do none of those diminishing things. You just need to tip the scales toward the side of the multiplier.

In some ways you don't have to eradicate all of your diminishing tendencies or moments. You just have to create a lot of multiplier moments and, and we found that when you lead like a multiplier by rule, you've earned the right to be a diminisher by exception. Um, and I think I learned this best from a group of, um, Physician leaders.

Um, I was, uh, called out to do a seminar for a group of physician leaders at Yale, at the Yale Medical School and their, their teaching hospital, Yale New Haven. And so these are all incredibly brilliant physicians who've, you know, spent years, years, um, educating themselves, preparing to not only be physicians to be.

It's a teaching and supervising the work of, you know, new physicians in residency programs. And we're doing this multipliers workshop and, you know, it's going great. I actually didn't think it would go very well and I found, Oh, maybe this might be a little bit of a no at all group. Right. And it's actually going extremely well until we get to lunch.

We come back for lunch and the group like has had it and they're like, you know what Liz? We love this idea of leaders multiplier. We get it. You know, we want to be debate makers and challengers and ask people good questions and give people space, but we're not sure you really understand what we do. You know, and they say this as if, like, maybe I've never been in a hospital, I don't understand the concept of surgery, and, and they're like, we, we deal with life and death, like, we, like we hold people's hearts in our hands and pump that, like, you know, if someone's flatlining in the OR, like, when someone is flatlining in the OR, this is not a multiplier moment.

You know, we're not going to lead a debate or ask a question and, you know, like pull out the genius in the room. Like we're yelling and screaming in these moments. And I think maybe the, the mother in me, you know, flashed to, okay, well what if that were my son or daughter? on that. Like, what would I want them to do?

I want them to yell and scream. Like, I want them to throw things if they need to, to save that life. But fortunately, as they're telling me this, you know, I have this thought come to mind and I asked them, what percentage of your time do you spend in life or death kind of situations? And they responded with, you know, they thought about it.

They kind of conferred a little amongst themselves and they said, you know, probably three to 5 percent of your time. I'm like, okay, great. So for three to 5 percent of your time, I want you to, to be a know it all and tell people what to do and save that life. But what happens when you play out that same way of leading in the other 95 to 97 percent of your time?

What happens then? And in some ways you lose the right to yell and scream in those moments that matter. Like if you've been a multiplier. During, um, the times of training, the times of preparation, like you've earned a right maybe in a time of crisis to say, guys, you know what, I just need to call the shots on this one.

You know what? We're 24 hours from launch and we don't have time to reinvent it or like I'm, I'm just going to. And, and you've built the trust on your team that they'll follow you in those moments. And they actually won't be diminished by maybe a bit of micromanaging here or there. But man. Yeah. You, you, you need to plant the seeds and the other 95 percent of the time.

[00:17:36] Christy Tonge: That is such a great distinction that you've made. Um, you said we need to create a lot of multiplier moments by rule and then we've earned the right to be diminishers by exception. I just think that's so well spoken around trust, and I know we haven't said that word yet, but clearly that's underneath everything we're talking about.

And you've just described what that means to be a leader who truly has built trust. And so then. Yeah, we're human. We're going to do the diminisher stuff, or we're going to need to, you know, get really directive at times. But when we've done that moment by moment more often, and been that multiplier and entrusting others, we earn that right.

And

[00:18:29] Liz Wiseman: yeah, well, and, and, you know, I, in some ways, um, you know, I, I, I am not so secretly on a mission to rid the world of bad bosses. Like I, I, I need to be out there and say that, like, that is what I'm about. You know, I'm trying to rid the world of diminishing and accidental diminishing. But with that said, I also, in some ways in calling.

For us to be more forgiving of our leaders to, you know, and, and if you've built that kind of trust, and I think you nailed it, Christy, with, I think it does boil down to the world word trust. If you've done that, the people are going to forgive your moments of weakness as a leader, your moments of tyrannical narcissism or whatever it is.

But if you do that most of the time, you will receive no forgiveness from your team. And, you know, in some ways. Not only I want people to be less of accidental diminishers part of Um, what I'm also asking people to do is to look at their leaders and realize that some of that diminishing is coming from really good intentions and, you know, to create healthy organizations where people really can be at their best.

Sometimes we have to look past people's diminishing actions and look back to their intent. Like, what do they really want? They do want me to take ownership. What do I need to do to help them lead me in a way that allows me to take ownership? But I really do. I think it's about building trust on our teams.

[00:20:03] Christy Tonge: Yeah. And, you know, the podcast, uh, is called Leaders Get Real. And so I do appreciate, um, that it's accidental diminishing and the leaders I work with, they have really good intentions. You know, me too. I've got good intentions, but I fall short again and again. And I do stuff. I'm like, why did I do that? And so, you know, it's encouraging to, to really see that if.

you know, through discipline, through commitment, I continue more and more of these multiplier behaviors, then I can be real, you know, and I can be very honest with my team and saying, Hey, you know what I did in that last meeting? I screwed up. And, you know, I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to start taking over with, uh, ideas.

you know, forgive, you know, can you forgive me on that? Um, and I think, uh, that this whole notion, you know, we're trying to get it right all the time, but I think as we build more and more of these multiplier behaviors, it allows us to be real, you know, courage as well. But to, to say, Hey, this is where I messed up, or this is where I got in the way.

And um, when we do that, when we're real like that with the people we're leading, that builds even more trust. Yeah.

[00:21:18] Liz Wiseman: I don't get it right all the time. I don't get the multiplier stuff right all the time. I think at best I'm fast to recognize my own diminishing moments like, oh, that didn't go as I planned or, oh, that did go exactly as I planned and I was just not in a good space.

Um, but to be able to correct them and, um, You know, create, I think one of the fastest ways to get real is to talk openly about accidental diminishing. In some ways, the organizations I've seen that go the distance with these ideas, that really get impact, that build this culture of intelligence and talent and capability, are not the organizations that talk a lot about multiplier leadership.

They don't obsess over multipliers. They don't put. you know, the posters of the five disciplines up on the wall. Please don't do that. Um, they don't do that and put my name on it. Um, but they, they actually do the opposite is they talk a lot about diminishing and it's not the, Oh, can you believe him? He's, you know, a huge diminisher.

It's they talk, they, they, they create. An open air conversation about diminishing, which the accidental diminisher concept is a way to do that. And they, they create it so in the open that someone says, Hey, you know what? You're in rescuer mode. I actually don't need a rescue right now. I just wanted to know you to know what I'm struggling with.

Like you can back off the rescue or Hey Liz, you are an optimist mode. You're killing us with all your sunny, you know, um, can do attitude. Like. What we're doing is hard and we need you as our boss to acknowledge that it's hard. I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah, you're right. I am in optimist mode or, um, Hey Liz, we can't keep up with you.

You're, you're, you're pace setting right now. And having that conversation out in the open. And I would say even In a way that's fun. I'll share one more thing from I found from the research. And I think it's because Chrissy, honestly, I was voted class clown of my high school graduating class.

So something I'm not sure I should be ashamed about or actually deeply proud of.

Um, but so as I was preparing the survey for this research, I had like 66 items on the survey. And at the last minute I tossed on sense of humor. I wanted to see how these different kinds of leaders stacked up on sense of humor. I think partially just to vindicate myself and maybe help my mom see that I haven't been like, you know, a complete failure because, um, uh, I think she's still trying to get me to live down the whole class clown thing.

And I put it on the survey and what I found was that sense of humor is the thing that's most negatively correlated with diminishing leaders. Meaning, they're not funny people, like they don't, and, and, and they don't laugh at themselves. And I think as leaders, we, you know, we, we often talk about leaders, um, need to be more vulnerable.

Well, in some ways, I'm not suggesting that you need to like. air your dirty laundry, talk about what you're not good at, your weaknesses, and certainly not like your deepest, darkest childhood secrets, like you were a voted class clown. Just lighten up and be able to laugh at yourself. Like, Oh, wow, I just hogged up all the airtime.

Or, Oh, you know what? I realize I, I haven't let go of the pen. I need to like, and, and sort of laugh at yourself. And when you can do that and make light of your own diminishing tendencies, particularly your accidental diminishing tendencies, it gives your team the space and the safety for them to call you on this, not in like big, scary, like, Oh, Christy, we need to talk like, uh, you know, can, can we talk, I'd like to talk about the ways that I find that you're diminishing me, like who wants to have that conversation?

And, and, and, you know, a lot of times people say, Oh, ma'am, Liz, I work for a diminisher. Should I like sit this person down and talk to them about the ways that they're diminishing? You know, my answer is never yes, unless I don't like the person, then I'll be like, Oh yeah, that's a super good idea. You should definitely do that because it doesn't go well.

But if we can just have a playful way of saying, Oh, whoa, Christy, you're an idea guy mode. You go, Oh, I know what Liz means by that. We don't need to have a heart to heart, a scary feedback confrontation.

[00:25:40] Christy Tonge: Yeah. And you said that word vulnerability and it can feel really vulnerable to like reveal my weaknesses.

Right. You know, cause if I, if I tell you, Oh, I know I do this and I'm working on it or anything, what if they start looking for it? You know, what if they start finding it everywhere? And, well, the honest truth is they see it anyway, right? But, um, that's fabulous the way you describe, you know, be able to laugh at ourselves and tell those things to our team, you know, say, Hey, I do this and I don't mean to, but I, I do.

So will you call me on it when I, when I do that? And then you do, you get that chance to sort of laugh, uh, laugh at it and bring it out into the light and then catch it more often when it's Mm hmm.

[00:26:28] Liz Wiseman: Yeah. Bring diminishing into the light. Um, allows us to, um, ferret it out, eradicate it, and, um, and create more multiplier moments.

Mm hmm.

[00:26:43] Christy Tonge: Well, these have been such, such great concepts and examples, um, challenging us in our leadership. And my listeners have said, from each of my guests. They want to hear something practical. Um, now you've been kind of sprinkling some things throughout actually, but what's something really tangible that listeners can take away and apply immediately?

[00:27:08] Liz Wiseman: I am going to give the, I think the most Practical, tangible things.

The first is what I consider to be the ibuprofen of leadership development, meaning it just treats a lot of symptoms and it's pretty, you know, pretty, um, universal as a solution. And that is to ask more questions. And, uh, you know, the best leaders, they tell less.

And they ask more and, and when they ask more questions, they get more from people around them. And, and you might start this by taking what I call the extreme question challenge, which is simple in concept, but pretty hard to do. And, and that is to, to lead a conversation, a meeting, a business review, a staff meeting, a one on one lead it by only asking questions.

Now. This is not to say that you should always lead this way because that's pretty creepy. But the challenge is, you know, pick something. Maybe it's just dinnertime at, at your house. Like your kids don't want to tell you how their day is going. Maybe you just have a dinner where. You, you only ask questions.

Um, for me, this emerged back when I was trying to get my kids in bed. And it, you know, it started out as like kids time for bed, leave her alone, put that away, go to, you know, get your pajamas on, get a book, not that book, you know, like get in bed, say your prayers back to bed. And it was just constant barking orders.

And I was given this challenge of why don't you just ask your kids questions. And I actually found. That I didn't need to tell them anything. All I needed to do was ask the right questions. But I've also learned that the greatest value I can bring my team is not. A directive, but asking an intelligent question.

So that I think would be the first thing. Um, maybe the second most practical thing you can do is, um, take the poker chip challenge, uh, go into a meeting where you might over contribute and say, I am going to give myself, you know, maybe you put five poker chips in your pocket or maybe you put five quarters in your pocket and you say, you know, each one of these represents something I'm going to say or contribute.

Um, you dispense your ideas in, in small but intense doses and, and, and, and much like this idea we started with, you know, you know, when it's time to play big and play a chip, but then you also know when it's time to retreat and restrain yourself a little bit and create space for other people to come in.

Um, and then maybe, um, maybe one more I would pick, um, carve out a space for people to make mistakes in your department, in the group that you lead, identify the, the sandboxes, the playgrounds where, um, people can. Take risks, learn, make mistakes, learn from them, and it's not going to bring the business down.

It's not going to take your career down or their career down and create places where people can truly experiment. Maybe those are three really, really practical things you can do.

[00:30:16] Christy Tonge: Uh, those are great. I, I'm coaching someone who just did the poker chip challenge in his meetings, and he thought it was a great experiment.

And all three of those are great. In fact, I think we need to, I think we need to do Oh, a giveaway. Uh, let's do a giveaway. And I'm going to say we're going to give a few books away to listeners who do one of these challenges. We've got the first one is the extreme question challenge. We've got the poker chip challenge.

And The third is the sandbox challenge, the let them make mistakes challenge. So if listeners, uh, will respond and share with us what they did and what happens, I'm going to do a drawing and give away a couple of multiplier books because those are some good ones for us to put into, into practice.

[00:31:10] Liz Wiseman: Fantastic. I love the idea of people doing something small and, you know, and we find that. Strangely, it's the least ambitious, um, experimenters that do the best here. Cause if you go and if like heaven help, if you read the book and decide, I'm going to do all of this, I don't recommend it because one, you're not likely to do it well and two, you're likely to freak out your team and, and, and so what I would encourage people to do is just try one small thing they can do, um, to be more, to, to create more multiplier moments around them.

Okay. Mm hmm.

[00:31:48] Christy Tonge: Great. Uh, this is all such compelling stuff. What are other ways people besides reading the book, which is a no brainer if you don't have it, um, order it or do one of these challenges and win one of these books. So start with that, of course, but what are other ways people can access tools or further insights to really be on this path as a multiplier?

[00:32:10] Liz Wiseman: So there's a couple of websites, there's, um, multipliers. books. com and it's multipliersandbooksplural. com because there's actually a couple of multipliers books. Um, and on that website, we've tried to put a lot of the tools, um, discussion guides. If you want to have a book talk, the accidental diminisher quiz is there and, um, It's like a three minute quiz and, uh, I was, you know, at first I was a little bit reluctant to put together a little quiz thinking, Oh, how helpful can a three minute quiz be?

We have found so many people have gained like incredible self awareness just by taking this simple quiz. Um, that's not a bad starting point as well.

[00:32:54] Christy Tonge: Awesome. Well, Liz, this has been fantastic. Uh, your work is so well founded. The disciplines are so spot on and these are really the skills. It's an advanced maneuver.

And so your book is so insightful in how to really become better at this complex thing called leadership. And it certainly impacted me and I know so many others as well. So thank you so much for taking the time today.

[00:33:23] Liz Wiseman: You know, it's my pleasure and Christy, thank you for the work that you're doing, because like, you know, I think a lot of us collectively are, are trying to rid the world of bad bosses and create environments where people can show up to work and be brilliant and give a hundred percent.

of their capability and be stretched and be grown and, and really get to find that work is actually the place where we experience great joy, not, not misery. Um, so thank you for helping, um, us do all that. Absolutely.

[00:33:55] Christy Tonge: Looking forward to continuing on.

You've been listening to my Wiseman, author of multipliers. Okay. We've got something immediate we can do first. She's given us three doable challenges. Which one are you going to choose? Number one, the extreme question challenge. Number two, the poker chip challenge, or number three, the sandbox challenge.

Just pick one and try it. And we're going to give away some signed copies of Liz's book. All you have to do is try one and share about it by going to leadersgetreal. com and click the button that says, I took the challenge. And second, if you want the book right away and Multiply your impact, use our Amazon link at leaders.

Get real. com and your purchase will support orphan kids whom I've just been with in Kenya with empowering lives international. Thanks for tuning in today. Please spread the word by sharing this interview with colleagues and subscribe at iTunes leaders, get real. com or your favorite podcast app. And until next time, go forth and get real.