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[00:00:00] Christy: Welcome to Leaders Get Real, inspirational interviews with today's authentic leaders. I'm your host, Christy Tonge, bringing you insightful interviews with bestselling authors and with leaders who are purposeful, passionate, and authentic. Gain compelling insights as they share the challenges and rewards of leading with authenticity and impact.

I'm so excited to share with you this interview with Silicon Valley icon, Guy Kawasaki, who was chief evangelist for Apple for the launch of the Macintosh. And from there led many startups, wrote many books and a whole lot more. Listen in for this lively chat where we talk about Guy's brand new book. Guy, it has been so fun looking forward to having this conversation right as you have your 15th book coming out, which we're going to talk a lot about.

Welcome to Leaders Get Real.

[00:01:07] Guy Kawasaki: Thank you. I will get real. I promise you.

[00:01:10] Christy: Awesome. Now, Guy, you have had such an incredible career. Of course, you're known for being the chief evangelist for the Mac back in Apple's early days. And you've published many bestsellers since. I had the role of innovationist at the Tom Peters company back when you were writing rules for revolutionaries and how to drive your competition crazy.

And both you and Tom were truly revolutionaries and game changers in business back then and, and ever since.

[00:01:42] Guy Kawasaki: Well, he's He sold

[00:01:44] Guy: more copies of In Search of Excellence than I sold of Rules for Revolution.

[00:01:50] Christy: But you've both just been fantastic inspirations and some real catalysts. So it's great to have this chance to talk today.

Now, your newest book is coming out. It's called Wise Guy, a fun play on words since your book is filled with wisdom from your rich career, which we'll talk more about, but also wise guy. It captures the humorous and wisecracking guy that you are. What's a vivid memory? Uh, as a kid or in your career of showing up as a wise guy

[00:02:27] Guy: in the sense that you mean of being the wise

[00:02:30] Christy: anchor

[00:02:32] Guy Kawasaki: Oh, let me tell you a story about

[00:02:33] Guy: my father.

So my father was a

[00:02:36] Guy Kawasaki: wise guy also He was

[00:02:39] Guy: a senator in hawaii state senator and he just took on the establishment. It didn't matter if you were a labor union Or the governor or whatever it was, uh, he did not care. He just took people on and that's something that I learned

[00:02:56] Guy Kawasaki: from him. Ah.

[00:02:57] Guy: So one of my vivid memories of him being a wise guy is he was talking to the governor of Hawaii.

And the governor was passing out his brochures or something. And I guess the governor asked him, do you have one of my brochures? And my father pulls the brochure out from his back pocket and says to him. Yes, I always keep your brochure close to my heart.

And I thought, okay, you know, that's, that's how I'm going to

[00:03:34] Guy Kawasaki: live my life.

[00:03:36] Christy: Oh, now, and your dad, he, uh, you know, you say he's a senator and immediately people think of the elite, but, uh, you talk about growing up in a poor neighborhood in Honolulu and starting from really humble means. So, well,

[00:03:52] Guy Kawasaki: even,

[00:03:53] Guy: even, even poor districts have politicians, there was not much elite

[00:04:01] Guy Kawasaki: about us.

Yeah. Now, don't get

[00:04:03] Guy: me wrong. You know, there are many biographies and memoirs. You can read where people pulled them up from their bootstraps, you know, they arrived at Ellis Island with one suitcase and one coat and that's it. And they had to overcome tremendous poverty and, you know, that kind of story.

Um, I don't want to oversell my book. That's not my story. Mm hmm. I had a very good youth. Uh, not, not upper class, but it's not like I was ever hungry or unclothed.

[00:04:36] Guy Kawasaki: Uh huh. Uh huh. Well, I was

[00:04:38] Guy: barefooted, but that's how it is in Hawaii.

[00:04:43] Guy Kawasaki: So I had a lower class, uh, lower middle class upbringing,

[00:04:47] Guy: um, in a, you know, kind of tough area of Hawaii.

And then this elementary school told my parents to pull me out of the public school system and put me into the private school system because I had too much potential. And that was one of the big sort of Changing points of my life, um, were it not for that decision, my life might have been

[00:05:08] Guy Kawasaki: very different.

Mm.

[00:05:10] Christy: Wow. Uh, and you talk about a teacher who believed in you and really went out of her way to, uh, to bring that to your attention. Very cool. Well, my leaders get real podcast is about authentic leadership and in wise guy you tell stories in your book about your Apple days One of my favorites was an authentic moment for you and Steve Jobs walked into your cubicle with a guy You didn't know and asked you what you thought of the company.

Nowhere. Tell us tell us that story And

[00:05:43] Guy: basically I told Steve and this other stranger that the company and the product sucked That it was mediocre. It didn't take advantage of the Macintosh user interface, graphics, you know, computational speed, whatever. And so I told Steve that the product of the company was not that important to us.

And then Steve said, well, I want to introduce you to the

[00:06:05] Guy Kawasaki: CEO of the company. Oh

[00:06:07] Christy: no! Thanks Steve, huh? Yeah, you had to, uh,

[00:06:11] Guy Kawasaki: you had to prove

[00:06:13] Guy: yourself every day for Steve. And that was actually the right answer because probably Steve felt the same way. So if I had said, this

[00:06:22] Guy Kawasaki: is a great product, Steve would have concluded, he might have

[00:06:26] Guy: even said, he might have even fired

[00:06:28] Guy Kawasaki: me on

[00:06:28] Guy: the spot saying, you know, no, their products are crap.

You don't know what you're talking

[00:06:32] Guy Kawasaki: about. Yeah. I mean, that could have happened.

[00:06:35] Christy: So your authenticity in the moment actually, uh, kept you on board.

[00:06:40] Guy: I passed the test. Yes. And I think the lesson there is to tell the

[00:06:45] Guy Kawasaki: truth.

[00:06:47] Guy: Now, now there is a, you know, you could make the case in terms of socially accepted behavior

[00:06:56] Guy Kawasaki: that.

[00:06:57] Guy: You shouldn't tell someone to his face that his product is crap, but that's one end of the spectrum. But the other end of the spectrum is telling him and the audience that the product is great. That either means that you're lying

[00:07:12] Guy Kawasaki: because you know it's crap, or

[00:07:14] Guy: You're too stupid to know it's crap. Both of those are not conducive to advancement.

[00:07:21] Christy: Or your credibility. Yes. Indeed. Now, what were pros and cons about Steve's authenticity?

[00:07:31] Guy: Well, Steve was a, Steve was a unique person. He truly was a visionary. And, you know, every Every millennial who's starting a company today to, I don't know, do online dating or to share photos, they all position themselves as visionaries.

And I think that the visionary world is a much stiffer test. So I would say in the history of business, there's been Steve Jobs, there's been Walt Disney, there's been Elon Musk. You know, there's three, four, five of all the visionaries. It's not everybody who starts a company. Steve was truly a visionary.

Uh, he did not suffer fools, he did not tolerate stupidity, uh, it was his way or the highway unless you were willing to argue against him. And arguing against him was a high risk proposition, but it was also a high return proposition. So all the stories, the movies, everything you heard or read about him are pretty much true.

Um, but you don't understand the context. And so, if you ask people who've worked for Steve. Do they regret it? Would they have not worked for him if they could go back in time? I don't think there's a person who would say, No, I regretted it. I wasted my time. He traumatized me, whatever. I think we all look upon our days with Steve Jobs as an honor and a privilege.

It wasn't easy, but the metaphor that I like to use is when you look back on your life, The teachers, the coaches, the mentors who were the toughest on you are the ones that added the most value. Mm hmm. And when you're in the middle of school, you might look for the easy teacher, the easy grader, uh, but when you look back on your life, you'll say, wow, it was the English teacher who made me do so much work.

That's the person that made me a better student, not the teacher that let me get

[00:09:32] Guy Kawasaki: away with stuff.

[00:09:33] Christy: Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:09:35] Guy Kawasaki: So, so, so to apply it to your

[00:09:37] Guy: audience.

[00:09:38] Guy Kawasaki: You know, one could make the case that

[00:09:40] Guy: you should be the tough boss. Don't

[00:09:43] Guy Kawasaki: try to be the boss that

[00:09:45] Guy: everybody loves. I'm not saying you should go out and make

[00:09:48] Guy Kawasaki: enemies.

But over the course of

[00:09:52] Guy: one's career, you know, I learned more from Steve Jobs than I learned from bosses who let me get away with

[00:09:57] Christy: stuff. Mm hmm. Yeah. In your book, you say he demanded excellence and kept you at the top of your game. It wasn't easy to work for him. It was sometimes unpleasant and always scary.

But you say you wouldn't trade working for him for any job you've ever

[00:10:13] Guy Kawasaki: had. That is true. And, you know, uh, contrary to all the

[00:10:20] Guy: theories of HR where you, you have these kumbaya moments where you meet with your employees and you develop mutually acceptable goals and you focus on the positive and, you know, all the HR mantras that go on now, Steve Jobs ruled by fear.

[00:10:38] Guy Kawasaki: Uh,

[00:10:38] Guy: I was deathly afraid that he would publicly embarrass me in front of the rest of the division by saying that I was a

[00:10:43] Guy Kawasaki: bozo.

[00:10:45] Christy: Now when it comes back to you, and certainly you've gleaned some, uh, some great things from that experience, but you've also evolved, uh, into the leader, the leader that you want to be and, uh, what would you say is important to you in being an authentic leader yourself?

[00:11:06] Guy Kawasaki: Well,

[00:11:08] Guy: for me, being a leader. It means bringing out the best in people, uh, enabling

[00:11:16] Guy Kawasaki: people to

[00:11:17] Guy: excel, creating opportunities for them, getting out of their way. Uh, I think the most important thing a leader can do is hire people who are better than he or she is.

[00:11:31] Guy Kawasaki: So if you're a leader and you look around the room at your direct reports and they're all better than you.

[00:11:39] Guy: That should be a great source of pride. If you look around the room, and you're the smartest person in the whole room, and the best person in the whole room, You are a failure as a leader. Mm.

[00:11:51] Christy: Well said. Well, Guy, you've had such a varied career, from diamond counting, to Apple's chief evangelist, to founding startups, venture capital, garage.

com, advising Google, and now at Canva, as their chief evangelist. I

[00:12:11] Guy Kawasaki: can't hold down a steady job.

[00:12:14] Christy: And Wiseguy is this wonderful gem of your collective wisdom. I think you've called it your Chicken Soup for the Soul book.

[00:12:24] Guy Kawasaki: Um,

[00:12:24] Guy: well, those of you who are familiar with Chicken Soup for the Soul, uh, that's a series of books of short stories that people submitted where they tell a story and a lesson.

So my book is similar in the sense that it's full of short stories, except that all the stories

[00:12:40] Guy Kawasaki: are mine. They're not contributed

[00:12:44] Guy: from outside. And, um, this book is not a memoir. It is not an autobiography. Uh, because I think the people who write autobiographies and memoirs, there's two kinds of people who write that book.

One is, you know, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, you know, uh, Mother Teresa, those people can write autobiographies and memoirs, you know, that, they really dented the universe. I'm not in that class.

[00:13:15] Guy Kawasaki: Other kind of

[00:13:16] Guy: people who write memoirs and autobiographies shouldn't have, because, you know, they're not that big a deal.

Except in their own mind. So I really, I don't want people to think this is a memoir and autobiography. It is a collection of stories that shaped my life that I hope. You can learn from, and it will shape your life also. It's no more and no less than that.

[00:13:42] Christy: And I think you've said, perhaps better titled, Miso Soup for the Soul.

[00:13:46] Guy Kawasaki: Yes, Miso

[00:13:47] Guy: Soup. Well, to tell you the truth, my original title for this book was, Are You Jackie Chan?

[00:13:54] Guy Kawasaki: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

[00:13:56] Guy: Can I, can I explain the whole story? Sure. Yeah. So, so one day, about 20 years ago, I had a Porsche 911.

[00:14:06] Guy Kawasaki: So I'm on El Camino Real, which is the main drag in Silicon Valley. I pull up to a stoplight.

I look over to my left. There's a car with four teenage girls in it. And they're looking at me, smiling, giggling, making eye contact. And I'm sitting there thinking, Oh my God, guy, you truly have arrived. Because of your books, your speaking, your work at Apple. At the time, I was CEO of a

So the girl in the front seat motions me to roll down my window and I roll down my window and she sticks her head out and says, are you Jackie Chan?

And I thought that was the funniest thing ever. And I could, yeah, I could stop right here and it would be a good story, but wait, it gets better. So now basically it's been one of my life goals that someday. Jackie Chan is in his Bentley or Rolls Royce or Ferrari or whatever he drives and he's in Hong Kong and he pulls up to a stoplight.

He looks over, girls are looking at him, giggling. He rolls down his window and the girl says to him, are you Guy Kawasaki? Ah. That's my goal in life.

[00:15:23] Christy: That's a dream worth having.

[00:15:26] Guy Kawasaki: Everybody needs gold.

[00:15:30] Christy: Wonderful. Let's get a sneak preview of some of the wisdom you share in the book. You say the best leaders are humble.

Tell us your story about Richard Branson that drove that home for you.

[00:15:45] Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. So one day I'm in Moscow, as is Richard. And he comes up to me in the speaker ready room, and he asked me if I fly on Virgin. And I tell him, you know, Richard, I'm a global service member of United. I don't even know how I got to be global service.

I don't want to jeopardize that. And so he got down on his knees and he started polishing my shoes so that I would fly on Virgin. So that's, that's the moment I started flying Virgin

[00:16:18] Christy: Air. Uh, but he just did that because you're Guy Kawasaki, right? Yeah.

Uh, yeah, I think, uh, as you reflected that in your book, um, you were just saying, you think he might've done that for just about anybody. That's the kind of guy he is.

[00:16:36] Guy Kawasaki: I really do. I really think he would. Um, you know, you know, one could make the case, yes, it's because it's you, Guy, but my sense of him is that he would do that for anybody.

He's just a wild and crazy guy. And I have to tell you, uh, it is incomprehensible to me to think that Steve Jobs got down on his knees so that someone would buy a Macintosh or iPhone, believe me. Uh,

[00:16:59] Christy: well, let's, yeah, let's talk about some of your other nuggets, uh, of wisdom. And one of them for you is you're never too old to learn something new.

Yeah, yeah. So my daughter, she's in college in Southern California and she's learning to surf and you didn't discover surfing till you're 63. And man, you're starting something new at 63. Yeah. Why? Why start at 63?

[00:17:26] Guy Kawasaki: That's not That's a slight exaggeration. I started at 62, but, um, basically, my daughter in particular really embraced surfing.

And so when she embraced surfing, being the hands on kind of dad that I am, um, I embraced surfing. And previously when I was 48, um, a mere child, I took up hockey because my other two boys loved hockey. So basically I'm like. Most fathers. When my kids take up a sport, I also take it up, no matter what age.

Now you're

[00:18:09] Christy: claiming that as an incredible dad, but didn't you get some advice from your wife on that or some, uh, some nudging?

[00:18:17] Guy Kawasaki: Well, it was, it was more than advice. I would say it was encouragement, that I would not be a typical Silicon Valley dad who would just be On the sidelines on a blackberry. So she said, you know, you need to participate in your children's lives.

And so she told me that when my kids took up hockey. So I took up hockey and I fell in love with hockey. I started playing hockey four or five times a week. And, and then, uh. Uh, my two older boys, you know, graduated and moved out and all that, and then that's when my daughters took up surfing. So then I embraced surfing, and now I surf three, four, five times a week.

You're a passionate guy. Now one of my other sons. I am a passionate guy. I mean, I either love it or I do not care at all. But anyway, so now, one of my sons has taken up wingsuiting. Oh my. And that is something I will not do.

[00:19:22] Christy: But guy, you're never too old to learn something new.

[00:19:26] Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, but I just, I want to look good when I die.

[00:19:29] Christy: So Not splat.

[00:19:32] Guy Kawasaki: Not splat, yeah. Oh, man.

[00:19:36] Christy: Well, that's, uh, that's inspiring as I was reading, uh, those stories. And well, gosh, as you mentioned, you know, you've written many books. Uh, you've got 14 other books that came before Wiseguy and you've shared wisdom in those books. A favorite for me is Enchantment, the art of changing hearts, minds, and actions.

And you've got a chapter called How to Enchant Your Employees.

[00:20:06] Guy Kawasaki: Tell me to explain a story that I don't remember.

[00:20:12] Christy: Well, tell me, I'll let you do this. This is not a story in your book, but the, the wisdom you share in that chapter, you talk about nuggets, like don't ask employees to do what you wouldn't do, empower them to do the right thing and address your shortcomings first.

So on that one, addressing your shortcomings, what's one of those times when you had a get real moment? And you saw your own shortcomings as a leader.

[00:20:40] Guy Kawasaki: Well, my shortcomings as a leader is that I have, I'm just not the, you know, bedside manner, Marcus Welby, you know, spill your soul, kumbaya kind of guy. Um, I'm just, you know, this is what you do.

This is what I do have at it. And so, uh, I don't have that mentor, uh, that mentor perspective. So many people ask me to be mentors. I never mentor anyone. I just don't have the patience and I, I just don't have the right mannerisms.

[00:21:17] Christy: Got it. And I love that you're willing. You, you, you call it as it is and recognize, recognize that about yourself.

Well, uh, you also say. celebrate success. What's a fun or enchanting way that you have celebrated success with the team?

[00:21:39] Guy Kawasaki: Well, I, you know, the McIntosh division was very good at celebrating success. And I have to say that, you know, it's one of those kind of things that every generation looks back or every generation looks at the current generation and says, My God, you're spoiled.

You never, you know, we never did stuff like that. So, you know, right now I'm here and I think, God, I look at these companies and they throw these five million dollar Christmas parties and they bring in, you know, I don't know, Sting and Janet Jackson and they rent in and I think, what a crazy thing. Of course, in the Macintosh division, you know, we celebrated by Uh, we had free juice and soda in the refrigerator, and believe it or not, seriously, believe it or not, in 1984 if you had a refrigerator that was constantly stocked with free juice and soda that was as good as it got, right, and the thought that you didn't have to pay for soda And every, every once in a while, we had massage therapists come in the building and they gave us massages while we sat at our desks.

And that was the leading edge of HR back then. Uh huh. And now, you know, I walk around Google and they got, like, Sand Volleyball and they have, like, Thai food, barbecues, sushi, GMO food, non GMO food, gluten free food, gluten loaded food, they got, you know, vegan food, they got raw beef, I mean, free, free dry cleaning, free oil change, free dental, I mean,

[00:23:20] Christy: you know.

So do you tell your colleagues now that you, uh, you had to walk uphill both ways in the snow back in your,

[00:23:28] Guy Kawasaki: your career? No. My God, I had to like walk to the refrigerator to get my soda. We didn't have any non GMO, vegan, Tibetan monk bottled water.

[00:23:40] Christy: Uh, well, let's, let's talk about what you're doing now, uh, now that we've, we recognize things have changed, uh, certainly.

But, uh, A few years ago, you returned to your role of chief evangelist and this time with the company Canva. Tell us about Canva and what made you passionate about evangelizing it.

[00:24:07] Guy Kawasaki: Yes. So a brief segue. So one of the keys to evangelism is to realize what I call guys gold and touch and guys gold and touch is not that whatever I touch turns to gold.

I wish that was true. Guys gold and touch is whatever is gold the guy touches. And so the key to evangelism is that you touch, create. Find or be found by something great because it is easy to evangelize great stuff. It is very hard to evangelize crap. So, this is leading me to tell you that the reason why I came out of sort of semi retirement to become the chief evangelist of Canva is because somebody pointed out who worked for me, named Peg Fitzpatrick, how great Canva was.

That it is democratizing graphics, it's enabling everybody to make great graphics, and everybody needs graphics. So this is, you know, a category producing, curve jumping product, so get on it. Right, now. That's why

[00:25:17] Christy: I got on it. Yeah, so say, say a sentence or two for people who don't know Canva about what

[00:25:22] Guy Kawasaki: it is.

Okay. So Canva, it's C-A-N-V-A is an online graphic design service. And so you go to Canva or you use an iPad or Android phone or iPhone and you create graphics. And the sort of design center is, we have already figured out what kind of graphics you need to create. For Facebook, versus Instagram, versus Etsy, versus Amazon book covers, versus flyers, posters, 16x9 presentations.

Uh, all those, all those design templates are done. And for each type of design, and there are hundreds of types of designs, we have hundreds of templates already done. And so, you go to Canva and you say, I'm making an Instagram. Uh, post, you go to the Instagram selection. There's a bunch of examples. Uh, the text is already in there.

The, the photo's already in there. You, you swap out your photo or you, you know, you change the, the snow scene to a surf scene and you enter your text and I swear, I promise you. Mm-Hmm, in roughly the time it takes you to. Boot Photoshop. You can finish your camera

[00:26:38] Christy: graphic. Now, let me tell you, I am a fan and, uh, I love using it for social media posts for this podcast.

Nicole, our PR director, introduced it to us at Leaders Get Real, and even an artistic numbskull like me can do great stuff, and it's free! Like, we've done so much, all for free. So this idea of Of democratizing design. You talked about how Macintosh democratized computers, Google democratized information.

You know, eBay did that with commerce and Canva. Is democratizing design. It's really cool.

[00:27:23] Guy Kawasaki: I could not have said it better myself.

[00:27:25] Christy: I'm quoting you from your book.

Now, that resonates for me. Not only because I've gotten access to something special from Canva, but that idea of democratizing something and making it accessible to people who wouldn't have the opportunity otherwise. That's cool, right? Uh, right now I'm part of a startup company whose mission is to democratize executive leadership coaching because traditionally it's just the C suite execs that get the coach.

But after decades of consulting and organizations, I've gotten passionate that it's mid level leaders who could really use a coach. You know, have, have you seen that, that director level folks have a lot on their shoulders and a lot of complexity? Uh, being in the

[00:28:13] Guy Kawasaki: middle? Absolutely. And, and, I would, I, I don't envy you because just the thought of trying to coach a CEO.

Oh my god. I'm sure you're more psychiatrist than coach. Oh. I, I have a. I have a theory that you can deny, but I have a theory that in most large organizations, the higher you go, the thinner the air, and the thinner the air, the more difficult it is to support intelligent life. So as you go higher and higher in organizations, the air gets thinner and thinner and the intelligence level goes down.

I swear

[00:29:01] Christy: that's right. Well, there's such, you

[00:29:05] Guy Kawasaki: know, You know, in companies, the real work is done in the middle and the bottom. Mm hmm. Yeah. I truly do believe that.

[00:29:13] Christy: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we're innovating, we're using technology to make it more available to more leaders. But, uh, you know, in my view, everybody needs a coach.

I need a coach. Yeah. And, uh, you know, whether you're at the top or whether you're sandwiched in the middle, um, there's complex stuff. To

[00:29:33] Guy Kawasaki: pull it back to my book, um, in the area where I discuss Learning to surf at 62. Mm hmm. One of the conclusions I draw is that you really should get a coach, because whether it's surfing or management, if you think you're just going to go to Costco and buy a board, And watch YouTube videos, and go out there and surf.

You're freaking crazy. So, the same thing must be true with management. If you think that you're just gonna go, you know, buy your skinny jeans, and your, you know, your Herschel backpack, and your Warby Parker glasses, and all, and you're gonna watch a few, you know, YouTube, Udemy, uh, LinkedIn videos and all of a sudden you're going to be a manager, you got a rude awakening coming too.

So, uh, I believe in coaching.

[00:30:32] Christy: Yeah. Well, we all need it. Yeah. And the executives I coach are really smart, capable people, but the reality is being an authentic leader is hard and we all have blind spots and we can all benefit from somebody coming alongside of us and helping us see what we can't see ourselves.

Helping us show up authentically that's powerful. Yes. Well in the first five pages of your book You talk about your parents and and your mom and dad never attended college You say your dad he did manual labor. It's like a dock worker. Yes. Mm hmm And your dad sounded like such a tremendous man, and you talked about how he was passionate and he loved books, that he loved to read.

Your house was filled with classics and the World Book Encyclopedia, um. Yeah,

[00:31:27] Guy Kawasaki: remember that? I mean You probably know.

[00:31:30] Christy: I do. I do. I would go to the library and pull out the volume 13 in the encyclopedia for my report.

[00:31:39] Guy Kawasaki: Library? What's the library?

[00:31:42] Christy: Now, um, I loved what you said in the book, uh, that despite, you know, any limited means you had as a family, he would say, you'll always have money.

So I imagine that's sort of where your own love of books, uh, began. You think he ever imagined, uh, back then you were going to write 15 books?

[00:32:05] Guy Kawasaki: No way. There's no way. And also My English teacher, the toughest teacher I had, there is no friggin way that he thinks I want to write 15 books. I mean, he's in heaven.

He's just like doing backflips right now. That loser wrote 15 books. Where did I go wrong?

[00:32:26] Christy: And you also say that there's no greater recommendation than when an author tells you to read somebody else's books. So what are any leadership or management books that you think highly of?

[00:32:39] Guy Kawasaki: Bye. Let me give you some.

So first, if you want to write by Brenda Ulan, for people who want to unshackle themselves from the limitations, uh, that they have imposed upon themselves, or have let themselves be, uh, limited by. So that's one.

[00:32:57] Christy: And by the way, uh, is that just if we want to write?

[00:33:02] Guy Kawasaki: No, it's for anything. Programming, movie making, you know, managing, any of those.

I also, I have to admit, I'm a Peter Drucker fan, so Effective Executive, uh, I truly did enjoy, years ago. Uh, Drive by Daniel Pink, I think, is a very good explanation of what drives people these days. Um, and even Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christensen about, you know, why you always have to innovate and as soon as you think you're done, that's, that's when you're in danger.

Yeah. So, uh. And also a last one called Influence by Bob Cialdini. This is a social psychology examination of how you influence people.

[00:33:52] Christy: Awesome. Okay. I just got some additional ones in that list and in your book, all throughout it, you say Suggest other ones too, Mindset, Carol Dweck, all kinds of good ones.

Oh

[00:34:06] Guy Kawasaki: yes, add Mindset to the list. Absolutely, Mindset.

[00:34:09] Christy: Yeah, that one's powerful too. Yes. Well, let's also talk a little bit about family. You have a chapter called Ohana and, uh, is that family in Hawaiian? And, um, you also say I want people to remember me as a father, not an entrepreneur, an author, a speaker, a brand ambassador, an evangelist, or an influencer.

Wow, that, that says a lot about you, um, you know, a really powerful statement. So we'd love to hear, uh, any. Any bit of wisdom, you wrote a chapter in your book too on parenting, a lot of our listeners are juggling with their, you know, their leadership role and being a parent. What is any wisdom you'd pass on about family or parenting?

[00:35:04] Guy Kawasaki: Well, first of all, let me tell you, I don't hold myself up as an example of a great parent, okay? And I think by definition, anybody Who does, is probably full of it. Um, when someone holds themselves, do you, uh, not to get too down the whole of politics, but, uh, you know, when you, when you read about such and such person is resigning from Congress or the Senate to spend more time with their family.

You know, I just want to throw up a little, right? Like, yeah, that's the reason why you're retiring, because you wanted to spend more time with your family. They should have

[00:35:53] Christy: done that. They should have done that along the way. Yeah, 16

[00:35:59] Guy Kawasaki: years ago. And, and, you know, I'd like to go to some of these politicians kids and say, So, you know, is Dan around more?

Are you guys like, you know, going fishing together? Are you, you know, restoring a Mustang together? Or is he a lobbyist now?

[00:36:18] Christy: Um Might have just been a nice line to give,

[00:36:20] Guy Kawasaki: huh? Yeah. Anyway, about parenting.

[00:36:23] Christy: Well, wait, actually, as you're talking about politicians, um, now you tell this story, uh, in the first pages of your book about your great grandparents and immigrating from Japan to Hawaii.

And you talk about what that did for your whole family line and for you. And you say, my family and I owe everything to America when you reflect on where you are today. And I'm curious, you know, what's your view, um, with the divisive issue of immigration that we're facing right now in politics, um, what do you, what do you think is important for us to do or to keep in mind?

about immigration. You have such a rich history of that in your own life. Okay.

[00:37:16] Guy Kawasaki: You sure you wanted me to answer this question? I'm giving you the opportunity to retract.

[00:37:23] Christy: It's all you. This is leaders get real, right? You said you were going to get

[00:37:26] Guy Kawasaki: real. Well, do you have Republican, white, male, old, listenership, or

[00:37:35] Christy: being devils?

Well, we may not in the future, but let's, uh, let's go at it. What were you going to say, Guy?

[00:37:43] Guy Kawasaki: Okay, so I, it seems to me that maybe, other than American Indians, everybody's an immigrant. So, this, this thing about, well, I'm a native because two generations ago my family came, and now you're coming, and you're not wanted.

Like, what total bullshit hypocrisy is that, right? And so, listen, I'm not saying, uh, we should have open borders and everybody should come in, but on the spectrum of Where we're trying to head now, where you have to be Norwegian with a PhD and worth 20 million bucks to come to America versus people who are trying to escape from Central America from, you know, gangs and murders and drugs and all that.

On that spectrum, I am much more towards the Guatemalan side and the El Salvador side. And I think that immigrants have made this country great. If you look at the tech business, So many chip companies were started by Indians, not American Indians, but Indians from India. Uh, uh, Google is Russian immigrants.

Uh, yeah, I'm third generation Japanese American. To me, it is totally ass backwards what we're doing. And so, I think that's what makes America great. And, and I know that, you know, the, the first generation comes over. Maybe they just escaped from Vietnam, or they just escaped from Cambodia, or Central America.

And the first generation comes and, you know, like my family's first generation, they're gardeners, they're taxi cab drivers. The second generation goes to college for the first time. The third generation goes to college and starts a company. And so, we need to keep that going, and it cannot be that the fifth generation who attended Dartmouth and then went to Yale Law School, summer internships at Goldman Sachs, uh, if that's the future of America, man, we're dead.

We, we need to keep this coming. Yeah, I love it. You want to know how I really feel?

[00:39:54] Christy: I, I love hearing you put words to it because I know that, you know, when you reflect on the opportunities, the education, the mobility you've had, I mean, yours is a, a powerful story about what opportunity has created and what you've contributed.

[00:40:11] Guy Kawasaki: If I were president, my logic would be. That we need to make America so attractive that the best and the brightest people in the, in the world want to come and live in America. Mm hmm. And so we should try to create a brain drain. We should want the smartest people in the world to come to America. Mm hmm.

And create companies and create products and create services, which secondarily will create jobs. The logic of, well, we need to keep all these people out to preserve jobs. Is just ass backwards. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So, um, we need to have growth to create jobs, not borders, to create jobs. Mm.

[00:40:56] Christy: Terrific. Well said.

Well, in your book, uh, back to your book again, um, yeah. Where you share a lot of wisdom, one of those is. Provide opportunities to others. Yeah. And you talk about people who have done that for you along the way, all the way from Trudy, a cow, your elementary teacher who saw potential in you. Yeah. And what, in that spirit, what are organizations or causes you support or ways that you're providing opportunities for others?

[00:41:32] Guy Kawasaki: So, well, one of my favorite organizations these days is an organization called Digital Nest, and it is in Watsonville. And for those people who are not familiar with Watsonville, Watsonville is, you know, strawberry, artichoke, kind of, field agriculture. Yeah. And, and most of the people there are working in fields, et cetera, et cetera, and their children are working in fields and et cetera, et cetera.

And so Digital Nest is a way to give them an alternate career path, because now instead of picking strawberries, they are making films. They're making movies, they're making videos, they're making websites. It's a place where you learn digital skills as an alternate path to agricultural farm work. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong in agricultural farm work, but you know, some of these kids, they want and deserve this.

Alternate paths. Mm hmm. So I'm a supporter of that. That's awesome. Now, having said that, I do realize the hypocrisy of ten minutes ago I told you I'm a lousy mentor. Um, so I, I can't tell you, I've taken all these kids under my wing and I'm teaching them how to do stuff, okay? But, uh,

[00:42:47] Christy: But you're, you're, you're supporting how to have orgs like that open those doors.

[00:42:53] Guy Kawasaki: Yes. Yeah. Very cool. And, no, I use them, I use them, for example, to make my wise guy videos. Mm hmm. Yeah. So. Uh, and their results, I swear, are just as good as most professional, you know, companies, so. That's awesome. I'm all about, I'm all about democratizing stuff. Uh huh.

[00:43:10] Christy: That's awesome. Now a few times in your book, you mentioned a phrase Steve Jobs would use, and you've said it once already in this interview, the idea of denting the universe, and you expressed your view that if you have a position that influences others, you are denting the universe.

You say, even if you affect only one person at a time or only a few in your lifetime. Every dent counts. Make no mistake, you're doing God's work.

[00:43:41] Guy Kawasaki: What I'm trying to communicate there is, you know, people think that, well, if I were a Steve Jobs or a Nelson Mandela or a Mother Teresa, you know, you think, oh, I have to be of this caliber, I have to have this impact, this This kind of, you know, almost superhuman person to change the world, and I don't think that's true.

Uh, Trudy Akau, Kalihi Elementary, sixth grade teacher, changed my life. Absolutely changed my life. And so, you know, if you're a coach, or a priest, or a mentor, or a teacher, um, you don't have to be the next Steve Jobs. You just need to change one or two or three or four lives. That's all it takes. Um, so people should not, you know, think, Oh, I'm, I'm not making the world a better place.

You absolutely are making the world a better place. If you just change, you know, one life and It could even be your kid's life. So, um, you know, I, at an extreme, for example, we have adopted two children. So, you know, am I Bill Gates going around Africa and, you know, curing malaria or whatever? No. For those two kids, man, we changed their life and they have brought immense joy to my life.

I don't know where I would be without those two kids. So, um, you know, so adoption is a form of denting the universe.

[00:45:06] Christy: Yeah. Wonderful. And, you know, in your business advice, you say that, uh, we shouldn't have a mission statement. We should have a mantra. Yeah. And you talk about Nike and, and UPS and so on. Um, tell us about that and whether you have a personal mantra.

[00:45:29] Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, so, uh, I have a disdain of mission statements. Mission statements that are 50 or 60 words long that try to cover all the stakeholders, and it's the mission statement that goes like, we endeavor to create Paradigm shifting, curve jumping, patent panning products that exceed the expectations of our customers while enabling our employees to self actualize their life goals and providing meaningful returns for our shareholders while killing as few dolphins as possible.

I got that all covered. I got the shareholders, I got the employees, I got the customers, I got the dolphins. So, no one can remember that. No one really understands it. Nobody believes it. So I think you have a two or three word limit. So my personal mantra for my life, the reason I exist, is to empower people.

Sometimes it's my kids. Sometimes it's digitalness. Sometimes it's people who read my books or hear my speeches or watch my videos. That's what I do. I empower people.

[00:46:36] Christy: Indeed. I love it. And at the end of my interviews, I always ask authors that, uh, people love to hear some practical advice about something they can go do immediately.

And I think you just gave it to us, is, uh, you just gave an example of your own mantra, right? Empower people, in two words, that's what you're passionate about, that's what you're living out. And so, that's awesome, that I feel challenged by that as well, to come up with my mantra and our listeners, hopefully that's a fun challenge for you as well.

That's right. We started this interview talking about the title of your book, Wise Guy, and that you are a wise guy and a wise cracker and I have loved every minute of that throughout this interview. And at the same time, reading your book and having this conversation today, uh, there's the other side of that word wise as well.

And you have got such rich wisdom and you are smart and innovative. Don't stop. And you, and you got a big heart and I, I love it and, and that's been an inspiration. So thank you, Guy. Well, thank you. Thank you for taking time to, uh, to talk today and I wish you all the best as you empower people every day.

[00:48:02] Guy Kawasaki: All right. Thank you so much for having me take care.

[00:48:12] Christy: Thanks for tuning in today. If you'd like to get guy's newest book, click the reads button at leaders, get real. com. And for the same Amazon price, you'll get a great read for yourself and help provide education for impoverished kids to get connected with guy and find links to references from our chat.

Be sure to check out the show notes in the podcast tab at leaders, get real. com. Please share this. This interview with friends or colleagues, and until next time, go forth and get real.